To: papval@otenet.gr (Vassilis Papathanassiou)
From: dlanor@oden.se (Ronald Andersson)
Organization: 
Subject: Re: STinG (and more)
X-Mailer: NEWSie Version 0.82 (Atari)


Hi Vassilis

>I hope your FALCON is now in good 'health' and back to business.

Yes, I've now managed to normalize most settings and configurations of
my harddisk stuff for Falcon usage again, copying the previous ones to
the harddisk now used by the Mega ST.  This was stiff work, especially
as I've also switched from PAL to VGA monitor on the Falcon, which all
by itself required extensive changes to all XBOOT/STOOL setups.

I use multiple setup collections for both those boot managers, with a
total of appx 100 different setups, all of which now needed new settings
for NEWDESK.INF, VI.INF, MAGX.INF, N_AES.CNF etc, etc.  But like I said,
most of that is now done, letting me go on to actual _use_ of the system.


>I'm using Newsie 0.82 now. Experiments show that it works, and despite
>some redraw problems (only under MagiC i hope), it's good.

I use this Newsie version myself too, though I prefer to use PopWatch
for all actual transfers of mail.  Thus I mostly use Newsie offline
except tor NEWS and FTP access.  I have naturally used it for access
to your FTP server too, although that requires the full path to be
entered in the dialog before opening the server.  Used this way it
does work fine even though it is not possible to switch directories.


>----- snip ----- re: Pithagoras theory
>> Nothing so far-reaching.  I just meant that no mathematics, no matter
>> how advanced, can ever simulate the way humans formulate their thoughts.
>>
>This is true, this theory deals with words. It's very simple but it
>works. It's impossible to aplly it in any other language other than
>Hellenic (ancient Hellenic to be exact) so i'll not try to explain it,
>but take my word on that, it works.

I realize a full understanding would require a good knowledge of the
language involved, but even a partial understanding is enough to state
that any change in grammar or spelling rules would invalidate the whole
concept.  Hmmm, but all languages are constantly evolving...

I know that the ancient greek culture was very concerned with preserving
the precise form of the language, since much of its traditions and even
formal history was based on unwritten oral tradition.  This is also why
(and how) the ancient greek verse forms and hexameters were developed,
as a means to enable the memorisation of huge texts, in a way making it
unlikely to be corrupted by faulty memories.  An incorrectly remembered
verse would (ideally) simply not fit into the pattern of the others.

I believe the system you describe was a similar construction intended
to preserve the integrity of individual words from any future change.
I also believe that such a system could not possibly be adapted as an
'afterthought' to any naturally developed language without extensive
changes to its rules of grammar and spelling. Therefore the construction
of this system must have been accompanied by a language reform, enforced
mainly to make this construction feasible.


>Yes, this is the general idea, but keep in mind that most people want to
>be able to read the originals, and there are also tools for this.

I wouldn't mind being able to read some of those works myself, but I
think it would take a lot of time to learn the language properly.


>----- snip ----- re: World maps
>> Yes, and some also had an uncanny ability to travel far distances and get
>> to the correct places even without maps in many cases.  This is something
>> most peoples today have forgotten how to do, although a few retain it.
>>
>Since things like the above are written in 'mythologies', seems to me we
>have a long road to travel, until we get there (again).

Actually a lot of it was not mythological, and really not very long ago.
After the accidental discovery of Iceland, the norwegians never had any
trouble finding it again, and Nordic sailors did not depend on charts.
Greenland and Wineland (American mainland) were also discovered, settled,
and revisited time and time again, still without any charts or maps.

This went on until sometime in the 12'th or 13'th century when the
Greenland settlement somehow died (probably by shipbrought plague).
Until then they made regular trips to Wineland to fetch cargoes of
wood and other stuff rare on Greenland, because Wineland was a lot
closer to them than Norway. The Wineland colony itself was abandoned
fairly early (after 3 years), but that was not due to any problem
in communications, but merely because the Nordics did not want to
found new homes in contested lands.

The skraelings (indians) made it very clear that they would never
tolerate the Nordic settlement, and since this was just a private
enterprise a massive invasion was impossible. These circumstances
made the settlers feel that they were not really gaining anything
by insisting on staying, so they went back to Greenland again.


----- snip ----- re: Our interests
>
>I hate to say i have over 20 years to lay my hands on a guitar, that i was
>playing from 8 to 15 years, but i hear music (mainly sixties and seventies)
>a lot.

I too used to practice guitar playing but never got very good at it, and to
take it up again is easier said than done. It takes quite a long (painful)
time to rebuild the callouses needed on the fingertips, at least to use
steel strings like I prefer.

I like music from those decades fairly well too, but I'm not very keen on
hard rock.  My real favourite music though is symphonic instrumental and
gaelic folk music (mainly Irish).


>And at the same time i check my hand-made hi-fi system. For a year
>now i also have a DOLBY Prologic system for movies. And speaking of that,
>i think FALCON is ideal for programming a prologic system (of course
>it needs 3 more D to A converters).

I've never seen the Prologic specs, but any serious sound processing is
bound to be improved by more parallel DA converters.  In fact I think I
have seen some add-on for the Falcon containing several such (8 ?).


>> My favourite computer game is Civilization, to which I have added three
>> new difficulty levels and made various other improvements and bug fixes.
>> eg: I removed Americans replacing them by Nordics, since after all there
>>     were no Americans (in the modern sense) in 4000 BC (game start).
>>
>That's really interesting (and great fun i believe). I have seen only
>reviews of civilization, saying it was a great game.

It is.  It has no fancy animations and such stuff, like people demand in
all games today, but it was eminently playable and can keep the interest
raised for hours, even days, on end.  Unlike many such games it does not
become boring after several sessions, because each new game can be played
on an entirely new map, generated on demand to user specifications.
(Age 3-5 billion years, Climate Wet-Dry, Land masses small-large etc)

It is as much a simulation as it is a game, and that is a quality I like
in games.  ('Frontier' has that quality too, though widely different.)


>DSP is really fast and interesting in programming, but unfortunately the
>comunication between CPU and DSP is not so fast. So a solution is to do
>enough things in the DSP, and get the results in regural intervals. In any
>case, with 3D matrix calculations, it's unbeatable.

Likewise for JPG unpacking and background music players.  The bad part is
that all these things need to coexist, and that is where the system as
designed for XBIOS falls down on the job.  There is no way for multiple
DSP jobs to run in parallel, making it meaningless for all serious work
by serious applications having several such needs.

To use DSP in serious multitasked applications we need a really smart
system for how the DSP resource is shared between tasks, and since
Atari is not around anymore it needs to be done by the newer system
developers (Andreas Kromke etc).


>> Ok.  I'm 42 myself, single, and detest Microsoft vehemently too.
>>
>So, there is still hope. I mean we are now mature enough not to change
>sides easily, or be pushed by the 'reality'.

Right.  Or rather, we are not prepared to give up our own view of the
reality for the predigested opinions of others, even if they do happen
to be in the majority.


>I'm afraid this is true, but at least i try hard.

I have myself too, but sometimes it is not possible or practical.
I may even have to do a job on a PC soon myself, to earn some extra
money for christmas presents  (I have lots of nieces and nephews).


>Now yes, but until 1991 (and later), where the 'DOS' days. And since i
>started PHILLOGIC with Turbo Pascal 4, i also had severe problems, and
>i ended up with a soft character set, working only in graphic modes.

That's true, I almost had forgotten those PC video modes.  On a modern
computer _all_ modes are graphic modes of course, since we no longer
use hardware character generators the way oldfashioned computers did.


>----- snip ----- re: Telepathy
>>
>> Actually that trend leads away from it, so the time needed is eternal...
>> But hopefully modern culture will not get stuck in that rut that long.
>> In fact it can't, because then it will not survive very long.
>>
>You don't know how mutch i hope so.

I think I know what you mean, but I can't fully agree.  If the present
culture falls it is likely to do so in a very violent manner, leaving
very few (if any) survivors...  I'd prefer some change through more
peaceful means, such as a renaissance through new scientific findings
and technology breakthroughs.  This is the only way mankind can spread
beyond the limits of this world, which would make the total extinction
through a single war impossible.

To ensure survival of our species (not to mention our culture), we need
efficient space travel, and we need it ASAP.


----- snip ----- re: Biblical time tables
>
>Yes, i'm well aware of those discussions. We'll wait and see...

Right.  They should stop nagging about these things in a few decades
or so, when their calendar adjustments go beyond reasonable limits.


>----- snip ----- re: Gods inside UFOs
>>
>Sure, 'real' proofs are not so easy to be found, but Hellenic philosophists
>were clear when they talked about 'operations' to existing human beings.
>The subject is covered in many books, and it's very large to analyze it
>here. Note that even at philogic.gif i sent you, Platon is talking for
>ONE God, and then he says that people (not only Hellenic people),
>'invented' Gods! (and some other interesting things). He also knew how
>long lasts a day on the moon! How ?

That last can actually be fairly well estimated by direct observation
of the lunar phases as seen from earth.  The mere statement of this
period as being a 'day on the moon' is more important, because modern
historians do not credit the people of this period with understanding
real planetography.

I find it even more amazing that the Mayans had accurate timetables for
solar eclipses stretching many thousands of years back, and quite a bit
into the future as well. Note that despite this they are not recognized
by archaeologists et al. as having known the real causes of eclipses,
which seems absurd to me.

Their calculations (?) for the past go far beyond the lifetime of their
own civilization, and are correct insofar as our own computers can tell.

Unfortunately their civilization had fallen even before the spaniards
arrived to help them into the grave (as they did to so many others).


>I can also add Aristotelis (after the physics), Orpheus, and others
>knowing such things. (all those at about 600 to 300 BC).

I aware of some of this, and also of even older stories in ancient
sanskrit literature.


----- snip ----- re: Modern technology
>
>Yes, and we are siting on a bomb (i wish it was an ATARI bomb). We use
>nuclear power and weapons (stupidly), we use petrolium to poison our
>planet, not to mension all the 'modern' methods of producing food
>(ie cancer), the forest destruction, acid rains, etc, etc.

Yep, and all of those are actually symptoms of an immature attitude our
civilization suffers from.  This is an acutely shortsighted approach
to all forms of natural exploitation, combined with an absolute refusal
to learn by history.  (eg: The deforestation of Gobi etc.)


>If this is civilization, thanks, i'll not take.

But of course, you really know it is not.  It is just the result of some
sick attitudes that have come to dominate this civilization, and which
we may hope will not last forever.


>Note that i'm not at all against progress or science,
>i only wish the motivation was not money.

Even that is not the real culprit, but the shortsighted greed for direct
gains regardless of future effects is.  People need to grow up and take
the long view as to what constitutes 'gain' and what constitutes 'loss'.
Then even those acting to maximize monetary gains would have to change
their methods, because for longterm gains it is necessary to preserve
an environment allowing survival.


>As for traces of previous civilizations, i think there are many, only
>they are more ecological (for example no plastic, that it could take some
>million years to disappear!)

I see nothing wrong in using plastic, or other 'synthetic' materials.
It is only the abuse of any materials that I dislike.  Correcly used
and recycled plastic is no more prone to cause ecological problems
than any other material.

In any case I belive that any high-tech global civilization matching
our own in sheer magnitude would leave marks that would take a very
long time to disappear completely, even if they did work in perfect
ecological balance with their environments.  That balance would have
to depend on high-tech resources dedicated for it, and when the fall
of the civilization occurred (regardless why) that work would cease.


>> Yes we do, and describing various artifacts of the gods' with some
>> very strange properties too.  Like the ship 'Skidbladner' owned
>> by the god Balder, which could be folded 'into itself' until it
>> fit in a pouch, yet could be unfolded indefinitely to take any
>> amount of passengers and cargo traveling through sky or sea.
>>
>Well, that's a good point to start searching. After all, nothing is
>impossible. Platon (again) said : Thinking is remembering. (or to be
>precise, thoughts are memories.)

I'm not sure exactly how he (and you) meant that, but there are several
interpretations of it that are correct, though not all are.


>> I agree, but unfortunately two attitudes predominate amongst those
>> who discuss these subjects, and both are equally wrong.  One is to
>> uncritically accept everything said as literal truth, disregarding
>> proof and/or indications to the contrary.  The other is a totally
>> set disbelief which will not be budged by any proof whatever.
>>
>> The very fact that these two attitudes are so common makes it very
>> hard for those seriously interested in finding the truth to discuss
>> such things publicly and be taken seriously.
>>
>I'm afraid this is the case in many other subjects, ie people want
>white or black, but as far as i'm concerned, i don't give a dime for
>what they believe.

Me neither, but I do care that this very conflict makes it next to
impossible for these subjects to be seriously investigated.


----- snip ----- re: Computers and culture
>>
>> Perhaps you refer to the unfortunate fact that many consider the
>> interests in 'hard science' subjects (eg: computers) to conflict
>> somehow with an interest in such subjects as cultural history etc.
>> But that is actually a very recent prejudice, not at all common
>> in older cultures, and evidently not shared by either you or me.
>>
>I was joking, although i have meet many 'hard scientists' that don't
>even want to hear for things like these.

Me too, and in fact there is a traditional feud between 'scientists'
and 'humanists' in many educational institutions.  This is sick, but
has been going on for several centuries now, so it can't be ignored.

In ancient times it was considered quite natural for a scholar to be
expert both in philosophical subjects and in the study of nature, but
I think it was the unreasonable attitude of the catholic church which
broke this tradition by redefining both philosophy and natural science
to force-fit them into the world-view of the church.  Real scientists
reacted to this by turning their backs on philosophy, since they would
have been burned at the stake if they spoke their minds on that subject.


----- snip ----- re: legends and myths of Hellas
>
>Burned or destroyed documents is always a sad story.

Yes, and though some of our writing could not be burned such as rune
stones, these too were usually dealt with to similar effect. In fact
most old churches in Sweden have several rune stones built into the
walls, and always with the main text facing mortar or other stones.
Many of the most significant finds were made when such churchwalls
had to be torn down for repairs.


>We have thousands of burned libraries here, but very serious sources are
>talking about guys that first stole and then burned the libraries. Most
>of them the first 500 years AC.

I would not be surprised to learn that a large part of the stolen books
had ended up in the vatican library...  I do know they have many unique
works, still classified as top secret by decisions many centuries back.


----- snip ----- re: Democracy
>>
>> Sometimes people berate me for saying that 'democracy' can be wrong,
>> but no implementation of it was ever perfect, and even if it was so
>> it is based on the fallacy that the majority is always right.
>>
>You are right, but demo-cracy (been a hellenic word) means that people
>are responsible for their decisions. How many people ? A small town.
>Who said that democracy is valid for whole nations ? If democracy expands,
>then it's called dictatorship with legal mantle. I know it caused wars
>between cities here in tha past, but they were local wars. Now whole
>nations are under the threat of war if 10 people or so disagree.
>(and we are still one of those nations)

Yes, but even so we have no other form of government available to us,
that does not _guarantee_ even worse oppression.  So what to do then ?


>> Or as I sometimes put it:
>>
>>         One hundred billion flies can not be wrong:  "Eat shit!".
>>
>Really good ! Majority also says: Go out and buy a PC. Are they right?

I'd say those two statements make about equal sense  ;-)


----- snip ----- re: FTP-Server
>>
>> To aFTP the position of a server in the network should not even be known,
>> and all valid IP addresses should be equal.
>>
>FTP Server 1.02 has been released. I have sent it to Peter last Sunday.
>It has password generation, multiple paths and permissions etc.

I'm glad to hear it.  I'll check his download bays again hoping he's had
time to update them by now.


>As for aFTP, i don't know. With 2 machines it works fine (serial or midi)
>With three, no. What puzzles me more is that sometimes TT bombs when aFTP
>from the FALCON (and through ST) is trying to change a dir. I found the
>bus error to be in STING.PRG, a routine of which is called from TCP.STX.
>BNET_TCP was NOT installed. I don't have more info, since i don't have
>any STinG sources, and disassembling something that i know you have access
>to, is a waste of time.

Actually I do not have the source for the latest kernel changes, but Peter
has promised to send them to me, to aid in the CEN_PLIP.STX debugging.  I
will try to find out more on the stuff you mention above then.


>> ----- snip ----- re: Freedom
>> Then perhaps you should stick to that old Freedom version then.  The
>> main improvement in the new version is of course that it also is a
>> CPX server, but WDIALOG+COPS also serves that purpose very well, and
>> though there have been compatibility problems these may be solved now.
>> Wilfried Behne just sent me a WDialog 1.98 beta that solves all the
>> problems I had (and had reported to him).
>>
>I downloaded Freedom 2.02 last night, installed it on the TT, and then
>transfered Freedom2.tos, thin120d.lzh and some other stuff to the FALCON
>(more than 1MB), using the FTP Server. No problems! Maybe they have
>fixed something ? Check it.

Actually it was this version I used, with the problems described.  I will
make some more tests, but if the results remain the same I can't use it.
Possibly I have some other stuff that Freedom interacts with in a way not
relevant to the stuff you use, but it was definitely Freedom that was the
culprit.


>Thing 1.20 is also good news. But i'll wait for an english version.

I only have 1.09 as yet, so I'll have to chek that out too (where ?).
If certain things I dislike have been fixed I will use it in german even.


>I haven't even heard about Desert Drain. Where can i find it?

Mmmm, actually I'm not sure.
I lost the original docs in a harddisk crash quite a while ago.
Now I only have the installed APP, but it is shareware so you
should be able to find it by searching the net.

Perhaps I should do that myself too.  There may be a newer version
now with better speed performance.


>Well, we had 4 earthquakes in Athens today! (and two yesterday).

Sorry about that, I hope no one was seriously hurt.
(I haven't followed the news for some days, so I don't know.)

I guess not having such problems is another of the advantages of living
further from the equator like I do.  But the price for that is to have
longer and colder winters.  The first snow came a couple of weeks ago...
