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  ______________________________________________________
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 |  The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable  |______
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                       Real-time Conference on Cyberpunk
                                     with
                                 Katie Hafner
                                (May 24, 1992)
     ====================================================================

          (C) 1992 by GEnie (R) and Public Forum*NonProfit Connection

               This file may be distributed only in its entirety
                         and with this notice intact.

 CYBERPUNK: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier has intrigued everyone
from William (Neuromancer) Gibson to Mitch (Lotus Development) Kapor.

On May 24 at 9pm ET, author  Katie  Hafner  joined  us to talk about the social
consequences of computer networks and the communities that have grown up around
them.  The government has both raided local  BBSs and solicited proposals for a
"weaponized virus."  What  rules  of  the  road  would  you  make  for computer
networks? Former  news  editor  of  Data  Communications  magazine,  Katie  was
correspondent for Business Week  specializing  in  technology and computers.  A
graduate of the University of California  at  Santa  Barbara, with an M.A. from
Columbia University School of Journalism,  she's  now  working  on a book about
German reunification.  The  New  York  Times'  John  Markoff  is  co-author  of
Cyberpunk.

This RTC is the third in  the  Public  Forum's month-long program on Technology
and Society.  Our next RTC  is  May  31.  And  don't  miss lively discussion of
Science, Technology and Society in bulletin board category 7, and check out the
files on technology and society in our library. See Cat 7/Topic 1 for details.

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<SHERRY.PF>             I'd like to welcome  everyone  to  the  RTC. Katie, why
                        don't you say a few words and introduce yourself.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        let's see... john markoff (my husband) and i wrote
                         cyberpunk over a period... of about three years and
                         it came out last summer. but the book isn't cheap, so
                         luckily, the papberback is coming out next month
                         let's see...what else?....oh yes, now i'm living in
                         berlin... most of the time, working on a second book.

<SHERMAN>                Let me explain the process here . . . Before we get
                         started, a word about the process . . . At the
                         beginning, only Katie and people asking questions
                         will be able to talk so that everyone gets a turn . .
                         If you have a question, type /RAI to raise your
                         hand. I'll call on you in order. Please type your
                         question, but DON'T hit <return> to send it. When
                         you're called on, THEN hit <return> to send your
                         question quickly . . . so we'll have time for more
                         questions . . . It's good to use three periods if you
                         have more to say and to put GA for "go ahead" at the
                         end of a final phrase . . . So let's see those
                         /RAIsed hands and I'll start calling on you! GA

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, did you actually meet Kevin Mitnick & the
                         others in your book ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yes. i met everyone in the book. the only one who
                         didn't cooperate with the book was kevin... kevin is
                         the hacker we wrote about in the first section of the
                         book... a member of an l.a. gang of phone phreaks and
                         hackers called the roscoe gang... he wanted to be
                         paid to talk to us, and i explained to him (and his
                         grandmother, who was working as his agent...) that
                         journalists, for obvious ethical reasons, do not (if
                         they're good journalists, that is)... pay sources fo
                         information.

<[Gene] G.STOVER>        When do you think cyberspace will be available to the
                         general public? What part will NREN and ISDN play in
                         this? <ga>

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it already is... the more bandwidth, the more
                         cyberspace! ga

<SHERMAN>                After a few more people have had a chance to ask
                         questions . . . I'll give everyone a second or third
                         or fourthchance . . . <grin> Richard, your question?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Who was the publisher for each edition?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        simon & schuster did the hardcover, and an imprint of
                         S&S... called Touchstone is doing the paperback. ga

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Who was your editor at the publishing house. (Sorry
                         for my unfamiliarity with the commands)

<[Katie] PRESS11>        my editor? a very nice guy who doesn't know a lot
                         about technology named Bob Bender ga

<SHERRY.PF>              Katie, I read _The Cuckoo's Egg_, and was fascinated
                         -- and appalled. Have The Powers That Be become any
                         more security conscious, or at least any more willing
                         to listen in the event something like that happens
                         again?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's still pretty bad, security-wise out there...
                         there are lots of loopholes. everywhere. ga

<[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> did he give you permission to write about him ..... m

<[Katie] PRESS11>        no. no one gave us permission. we're journalists, not
                         movie producers. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        We read about the really sensational cases of
                         hackers. How much of a problem are they overall? And
                         in trying to limit their activities, do we lose more
                         than we gain (since we limit other, legitimate, users
                         as well)?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i think that the press reports that blow the hacking
                         incidents out of proportion.... do a real disservice
                         to society... that is, i think that now the public at
                         large has an exaggerated fear of hackers. in the
                         book... we tried to write very realistically about
                         what really happened... and i do think that we're
                         treading aline between restricting access too much
                         and leaving systems too wide open. ga

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, What was your feelings about the chaos club in
                         Germany?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i like them a lot... they're very different from
                         hackers in the united states, and that was kind of
                         interesting...

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        How much of their activities did you get to witness
                         ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        wau holland, the founder of chaos, is an old 60's
                         radical, and a liberatarian who's categorically
                         opposed to authority ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, did you see Darryl's second qeustion -- how
                         much of their activities did you get to witness?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        oops. sorry... yeah. i hung out with pengo in berlin
                         for several weeks... and of course i witnessed quite
                         a bit... he was good (at hacking, that is), but more
                         of a talker, really, than anything else... the really
                         talented one in that group was probably markus hess,
                         the one who was in the berkeley computers and who
                         gave cliff stoll such a heart attack... and in the
                         end, they all got scared and ratted on each other and
                         three of them went to jail (well, hess's parents
                         bailed him out) ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, who do you think is going to draw that line
                         between too little restriction and too much? What
                         role does the public play? ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i guess we have to draw the line... i mean, we are
                         all sitting in cyberspace right now, and we're pretty
                         much respecting the rules of the road... and if we
                         want to keep the feds from telling us what we can and
                         cannot do in cyberspace then we have to come up with
                         rules that are acceptable to us and to them. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        How do you think the "rules of the road" will change
                         when commercial firms become more evident with NREN?
                         Are they more concerned about security than
                         universities, etc.?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        in a way it's too bad because anything that goes
                         commercial takes on a formal flavor that can be
                         restrictive... but that's not always the case... but
                         yes, they are concerned about security, particularly
                         because of all the security firms out there telling
                         them they should be. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        One of the things I like about the Internet is being
                         able to go to various computers for information. Do
                         you think the whole system will become more
                         restrictive to accommodate the commercial firms?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        new technology such as cryptography... will tend to
                         make commercialization work because it will make
                         breaking into systems more difficult. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, would you say something about the differences
                         between European and US regulations governing
                         security and privacy -- and the potential for
                         problems with the European Community?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        the europeans have always (like in all things) been a
                         little bit behind the u.s.... in hacking laws. the
                         most interesting thing about it is that as soon as a
                         country makes it illegal to break into computers...
                         then the hacking drops precipitously (or maybe the
                         underground goes deeper)... the international folks
                         at the ec are already trying to come up with uniform
                         laws governing computer security throughout the
                         european community. yawn. ga

<[Phillip] P.MAY2>       katie, do you feel there is a greater potential for
                         abuse of systems from "insiders", i.e. employees of
                         companies who implement the systems, or outsiders
                         like those described in you r book .? ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        of course there is... it's pretty widely known that
                         almost all of the white-collar crime out there that
                         uses computers and is most expensive to business is
                         committed by insiders... but companies get very
                         embarrassed by that... and they tend not to report
                         those crimes... they'd rather report crimes that seem
                         to be committed by juvenile delinquents... not their
                         own people! ga

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        What is nren & Katie what is the new book about. More
                         hackers or what?... I loved your first book, read it
                         in two days ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        national research and education network, designed to
                         send data above a gigabit... and tie all the nation's
                         supercomputer centers together and it's federally
                         funded. the book i'm working on now... is about a
                         particular house in gemrany. just over the glienicker
                         bride (where all the spies used to be exchanged)...
                         in berlin. nothing to do with computers.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Darryl, check out the article from the Whole Earth
                         Review about data highways; it's in our file library
                         (with permission, of course :-) Darryl, follow up
                         question?

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Sounds interesting still, I'll thanks

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Stock exchanges and currency exchanges are close to
                         24 hour world-wide operation. How possible will it be
                         for insiders to undetectable manipulate the
                         markets?GA

<[Katie] PRESS11>        quite possible. have you heard about the $170
                         million or so that disappeared mysteriously from
                         volkswagen's books?... this happened a few years
                         ago. ga

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   No. I haven't heard the VW story. I think the
                         potential for financial hacking is enormous GA

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i think you're absolutely right... and i think we
                         (the public) only hear about a very small fraction of
                         the stuff that goes on. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Before we move into open discussion, I want to take a
                         second to . . . thank all of you for your question
                         and, especially, . . . to thank Katie for joining us!

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it was fun! sorry about all my typing blunders :-)

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          And now for the winners of our contest . . . Thanks
                         to Simon & Schuster, the publishers of CYBERPUNK, for
                         donating four copies of the book to our contest
                         winners. Thanks to everyone for submitting such
                         imaginative entries!. . . The envelope please . . .

                         For the best scenarios describing constructive uses
                         of hacking, T.CAMPBELL11 and M.VANCE1. And for
                         destructive uses, S.CURTISIII1 and D.TAMPLIN.
                         Congratulations to Tim, Vance, Stan and David! I'll
                         now open the room so that all of us can type . . .

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          No one counts typing blunders, Katie, not in here!

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   RTC spell-checkers. The next cyber-frontier! <g>

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        Are the contest winners all in one place where we can
                         read them?

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Yes, the contest entries are in Cat 7/Topics 16 and
                         17, except . . . for one that was sent by e-mail
                         because the author thought it too dangerous to post
                         in public

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, what do you think about the FBI's interest in
                         legislation requiring the phone companies to make
                         digital phone transmission accessible to them? (Did
                         you see Marc and Janlori on Koppel's program the
                         other night?)

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's the stupidest thing i've ever heard of. it will
                         never work... people will just buy cheap encryption.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, have you meet meet William Gibson & How
                         surprised are you at the way his books have become
                         reality?

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Hmmm, say a little more about that, would you?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i've talked to him on the phone. i'd like to meet
                         him, though. he's extremely tall, i hear ... but what
                         part has become reality? ga

<[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON>   Darryl, pray that the world itself does not become
                         that horrible.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        you're not kidding.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        I was meaning the way virtual reality is shaping

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Most of what I've read about VR lately was in his
                         books

<[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON>   I've had some success with virtual reality using
                         x-specs and stereo headphones.

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Experiment surgery has been done for the hearing
                         impaired, wiring the bones between the ear and the
                         brain so that some sound can be heard. This is, I
                         suggest, a rudimentary form of the cyber-wiring that
                         is certain to come.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Richard, will they just wire digital jacks where our
                         ears used to be?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        that's been done for the blind, too.

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        Interesting thought, Richard. Imagine what happens if
                         someone messes with that!

<SHERRY.PF>              I heard that on a talk show just this morning,
                         Richard!

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Yes, Tom. Expect that eventually it will be done by
                         radio receivers, not wires.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Will there be an OFF switch?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Let's hope so, Tom

<SHERRY.PF>              That'll depend on whether or not we end up in 1984 or
                         Brave New World.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Is this what Gene meant when he said we'd all be on
                         the network?

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, what is the wildest computer lab you have
                         visited as far as technologically advanced?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   I've often thought it was just a question of who got
                         us first---the cyberpunks or the genetic engineers.
                         Eventually it will be both.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's a toss-up between the media lab and xerox parc

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        It that the media lab at MIT?

<SHERRY.PF>              Is that Xerox in Leesburg, VA?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yeah, and xerox parc in palo alto

<SHERRY.PF>              I haven't been to Palo Alto, but I've been to
                         Leesburg. It's pretty wild too. ;)

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        hAVE YOU MET mARVIN mINSKY at MIT, He has wrote some
                         wild books about the brain & AI

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yes. he's a wild guy. you should meet his daughter

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Tom, I didn't get a chance to, but will I loved his
                         book Society of the Mind.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i've never read that.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        It's about using Artificial Intelligence & trying to
                         mimic the brain

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        About how the easiest things we do as humans are the
                         hardest to get a computer to do.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie's already stayed longer than I asked and so . .
                         I want to thank her again for joining us and . . . to
                         remind all of you that Jerry Berman, formerly of the
                         ACLU and now . . . head of the D.C. office of the
                         Electronic Frontier Foundation will . . . be our
                         guest next Sunday! . . . Do join us and, during the
                         week, . . . take a minute to add your thoughts to our
                         bulletin board discussion about . . . technology and
                         society in Category 7 . . . All of you . . . are
                         welcome to stay as long as you like. Katie. thanks
                         again!

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Such as moving Thanks, Katie, will have to read your
                         new book. Good luck

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Thanks Katie, Tom. Enjoyed the RTC. Looking forward
                         to visiting again.

<SHERRY.PF>              You can get to the PF*NPC bulletin board on page
                         8011;1 -- it's a Basic service.


    -----# Participants #-----

<[Andrea]  A.DUDA>  <[Darryl]   D.JENT>   <[Dave]   D.THOMPSON74>   <[2]  eric]
E.SHCHNEIDER> <[Gene] G.STOVER>  <[Fomalhaut]  J.PAXSON> <J.PRESLEY1> <[Lamont]
L.INGALLS>  <MCFARMER>   <[Phillip]   P.MAY2>   <[Katie]   PRESS11>  <[Richard]
R.GILLIAM3> <[Tom] SHERMAN> <SHERRY.PF> <[Tom] T.BARKER6>

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       ________             PF$  PF*NPC Sysops      _____________
      |        |_                                  | Weekly RTC: |_
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